Discussion:
Is the Duet obsolete?
(too old to reply)
RooKie
2011-06-01 12:47:37 UTC
Permalink
I am looking to buy a Duet but have been told these are no obsolete? The
main feature I am looking for is the controller handset to remotely
access the music on my PC/NAS. Is this functionality now available via
smartphone? Can I buy a "box" to communicate to my HiFi from my PC/NAS
using smartphone?

What support is offered in the longer term for Duet units?

Thanks - a RooKie in this field.


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garym
2011-06-01 13:13:21 UTC
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RooKie;634273 Wrote:
> I am looking to buy a Duet but have been told these are no obsolete? The
> main feature I am looking for is the controller handset to remotely
> access the music on my PC/NAS. Is this functionality now available via
> smartphone? Can I buy a "box" to communicate to my HiFi from my PC/NAS
> using smartphone?
>
> What support is offered in the longer term for Duet units?
>
> Also I have noted that people refer to SQB server on the PC - if I want
> to use the NAS do I need to install SQB server on that as well?
>
> Thanks - a RooKie in this field.

not obsolete, but newer technology is available (e.g., the TOUCH). Yes,
lots of smartphone apps (and most people, including myself prefer these
to the CONTROLLER). I use iPENG on my iphones, ipad to control all my
SB players (select music source (my own music, playlists, internet
radio, pandora, etc. as well as volume). I also like the SqueezePad app
for my ipad. Stuff for android phones too...

To play your own music, you'll need the SBS software running somewhere
(a PC, a NAS, etc.) Some NAS are powerful enough to run the software,
some are not. search this forum on the issue of using NAS. I use a
vortexbox appliance (a headless computer stuck in a closet) to store my
music, run SbS, and keep general backup files. I can access my vortexbox
via any other computer on my network (my laptop for example).


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Owen Smith
2011-06-01 18:16:28 UTC
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garym;634276 Wrote:
> not obsolete, but newer technology is available (e.g., the TOUCH).

I like my Squeezebox Duet very much. I just wish Logitech would update
the receiver so that it plays 24/96 (and ideally 24/192) music like the
Touch.

I don't like the Touch, bending over my hifi to use the touch/swipe
interface is such a backwards step compared to the luxury of sitting
somewhere comfortable with the Duet controller in hand. The Touch
display is unreadable from a distance, so using it with the IR remote
isn't really on either. The best way to use a Touch is to control it
with a Duet controller, which makes the extra cost of the touchscreen
and display rather a waste.


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InTheBath
2011-06-01 19:38:12 UTC
Permalink
When a message like this comes up, I'm amazed how many people rate iPeng
over the Controller.

I love iPeng, but would only ever consider it in parallel with the
Logitech Controller, never in its place.

Aside from the setup problem mentioned above, iPeng takes a while to
get started and find the players compared to the always there
controller. Not a long time, but I want my music as quick as
possible...
And I'm the only one in my family with an iphone. And even when I'm
around, the phone is often in jacket/car etc. Even my kids can work the
controller with ease.

I wouldn't recommend receivers without at least one controller in the
house.

M.


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garym
2011-06-01 20:08:20 UTC
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InTheBath;634329 Wrote:
> When a message like this comes up, I'm amazed how many people rate iPeng
> over the Controller.
>
> I love iPeng, but would only ever consider it in parallel with the
> Logitech Controller, never in its place.
>
> Aside from the setup problem mentioned above, iPeng takes a while to
> get started and find the players compared to the always there
> controller. Not a long time, but I want my music as quick as
> possible...
> And I'm the only one in my family with an iphone. And even when I'm
> around, the phone is often in jacket/car etc. Even my kids can work the
> controller with ease.
>
> I wouldn't recommend receivers without at least one controller in the
> house.
>
> M.

my wife loves the controller. frankly, even with my iphone and ipad,
99% of the time I control everything from SqueezePlay running on my
laptop, sitting in front of me on the table in my "office/breakfast"
room.


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Mnyb
2011-06-02 05:11:05 UTC
Permalink
I also use SqueezePad instead of iPeng sometimes, both apps have thier
pro's and con's.
So I use both.

Btw my iPad is also remote controll for my hifi/TV via iRule another
cool app, in iRule i've also built an ir remote to use with my
squeezebox.


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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
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bluegaspode
2011-06-02 06:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Me and my wife use SqueezePad on iPad (well no wonder) and
SqueezeCommander on Android.

Nevertheless: I started with a Duet system and it still provides great
value:
- it's available much faster: it typically waits in its cradle in the
living room so before I found where the iPad is lying around, or got my
phone and found+started the SqueezeCommander App among all those other
App I have the Duet controller in my hand and the music started.
- my wife uses it all around the time. She definitely doesn't get warm
with the phone solution, and as said: iPad is not always around when
she wants to start music.

On longer listening session and when someone else is around of course
me and my wife prefer the iPad.

Also the form factor of the Squeezebox Receiver is a big pro. I
wouldn't know where to place/hide the Touch in my rack. This little
black Receiver box is just perfect for my needs.


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Did you know: *'SqueezePlayer' (www.squeezeplayer.com)* will stream all
your music to your Android device. Take your music everywhere!
Remote Control + Streaming to your iPad? *'Squeezebox + iPad =
SqueezePad ' (www.squeezepad.com)*
Want to see a Weather Forecast on your Radio/Touch/Controller ? => why
not try my 'Weather Forecast Applet'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73827)
Want to use the Headphones with your Controller ? => why not try my
'Headphone Switcher Applet'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67139)
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aubuti
2011-06-02 09:53:18 UTC
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Owen Smith;634315 Wrote:
> I like my Squeezebox Duet very much. I just wish Logitech would update
> the receiver so that it plays 24/96 (and ideally 24/192) music like the
> Touch.
>
> I don't like the Touch, bending over my hifi to use the touch/swipe
> interface is such a backwards step compared to the luxury of sitting
> somewhere comfortable with the Duet controller in hand. The Touch
> display is unreadable from a distance, so using it with the IR remote
> isn't really on either. The best way to use a Touch is to control it
> with a Duet controller, which makes the extra cost of the touchscreen
> and display rather a waste.
The extra cost of the touchscreen and display is negligible. Unlike the
VFD screens on the SB2/SB3/Boom/Transporter, the LCD touchscreen on the
Touch are a dime a dozen (you've noticed it has the same form factor as
a lot of GPS units and some phones?).

If you don't like the touchscreen or the IR remote, use anything else.
The Duet Controller, an Android phone, an iThing, whatever. Saying you
don't like the Touch because you don't find the display and touchscreen
useful is kind of like saying you don't like a particular CD because you
don't find the liner notes useful.


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Owen Smith
2011-06-02 11:45:45 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;634409 Wrote:
> If you don't like the touchscreen or the IR remote, use anything else.
> The Duet Controller, an Android phone, an iThing, whatever. Saying you
> don't like the Touch because you don't find the display and touchscreen
> useful is kind of like saying you don't like a particular CD because you
> don't find the liner notes useful.

There's also the space to consider, I hide the Duet receiver behind the
TV in my hifi rack. I'm not sure I could find space for the Touch.


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garym
2011-06-02 11:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634431 Wrote:
> There's also the space to consider, I hide the Duet receiver behind the
> TV in my hifi rack. I'm not sure I could find space for the Touch.

it's pretty small. and if you don't care about the touch screen itself,
you can likely remove the "stand" (might have to cut if off at its two
connection points, not sure) and then what's left is about the same
size as the receiver and can be laid flat, sideways, etc. Even if you
leave the stand on, you can turn the touch sideways, etc. if you're
just trying to cram it into some hidden space.


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Owen Smith
2011-06-02 11:58:33 UTC
Permalink
garym;634433 Wrote:
> it's pretty small. and if you don't care about the touch screen itself,
> you can likely remove the "stand" (might have to cut if off at its two
> connection points, not sure) and then what's left is about the same
> size as the receiver and can be laid flat, sideways, etc. Even if you
> leave the stand on, you can turn the touch sideways, etc. if you're
> just trying to cram it into some hidden space.

It's possible, but part of me just doesn't like hiding something that
has a display. It's clearly not meant to be hidden away like that. Also
there's all the extra unecessary power consumption of running a display
that no-one is going to be looking at, not to mention the extra
electrical noise it might generate.

The Duet is a fantastic idea, I don't understand why Logitech aren't
updating it. The controller should be upgraded to a touchscreen device
with a larger display, and the receiver should be upgraded to do 24/96
with a better quality DAC in it.


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garym
2011-06-02 12:02:49 UTC
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Owen Smith;634434 Wrote:
> It's possible, but part of me just doesn't like hiding something that
> has a display. It's clearly not meant to be hidden away like that. Also
> there's all the extra unecessary power consumption of running a display
> that no-one is going to be looking at, not to mention the extra
> electrical noise it might generate.
>
> The Duet is a fantastic idea, I don't understand why Logitech aren't
> updating it. The controller should be upgraded to a touchscreen device
> with a larger display, and the receiver should be upgraded to do 24/96
> with a better quality DAC in it.

I hear you on the hiding. You can search this forum for "soundcheck"
and use his evidently simple programs to turn off all sorts of stuff on
the TOUCH, including the screen. I don't know for sure of course, but
I'm doubtful about future CONTROLLERs. The movement seems to be toward
apps for smart phones instead. Even logitech has now issued a free
controller app.


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ShutterShock
2011-06-02 15:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Not too sure if this is appropriate, but I do have a Duet Receiver for
sale. If interested, please feel free to send me a private message.


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Tim

Living Room: Duet, Bryston B60R w/built-in DAC, PMC FB1i Speakers
Kitchen: Boom
Bedroom: Boom
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maggior
2011-06-02 16:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634434 Wrote:
> The Duet is a fantastic idea, I don't understand why Logitech aren't
> updating it. The controller should be upgraded to a touchscreen device
> with a larger display, and the receiver should be upgraded to do 24/96
> with a better quality DAC in it.

Who said they aren't updating it? All we know is that they are
discontinuing the duet as we know it today.

I agree that it was a great idea, except for the way the configuration
was handled. With the proliferation of touch devices (tablet PCs,
smart phones, iPod Touch, etc.) I'm not so sure it would make sense for
Logitech to develop another controller. A receiver on the other
hand...that would be nice. However that may be too much of a niche
product at this point.

Only time will tell us what Logitech's plans are.


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Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod
Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.0, MusicIP, and
SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 34,767 songs, 2,776 albums, 505 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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aubuti
2011-06-02 17:01:28 UTC
Permalink
maggior;634488 Wrote:
> I agree that it was a great idea, except for the way the configuration
> was handled. With the proliferation of touch devices (tablet PCs,
> smart phones, iPod Touch, etc.) I'm not so sure it would make sense for
> Logitech to develop another controller. A receiver on the other
> hand...that would be nice. However that may be too much of a niche
> product at this point.
I completely agree that requiring (more or less) the SB Controller to
configure the SB Receiver was a mistake.

With the penetration and sheer volume of iThings and Android devices, I
can't possibly see Logitech making another handheld controller (even
when you consider their successful line of Harmony remotes). An SBC2
would be coming in at a huge competitive disadvantage.

And I also agree that a Receiver2 would be a niche product. The VFD was
the single biggest cost item in the SB3, so by removing it they could
offer the SBR at a significant price cut. The price difference for a
screenless Touch would be small, and almost certainly not worth the
cost of maintaining another SKU.

If it were a different company -- one with more focus on the higher end
and less on the mass market -- I could see a rack-sized screenless
device as a possibility. Like a marriage of the Transporter and the
Touch, but without any screen and with a lot of audiophile bells and
whistles. It would still be niche product, but with a margin that might
make it profitable. But Logitech would never be the company to make that
device.


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Phil Leigh
2011-06-02 19:27:34 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;634499 Wrote:
> ...
>
> If it were a different company -- one with more focus on the higher end
> and less on the mass market -- I could see a rack-sized screenless
> device as a possibility. Like a marriage of the Transporter and the
> Touch, but without any screen and with a lot of audiophile bells and
> whistles. It would still be niche product, but with a margin that might
> make it profitable. But Logitech would never be the company to make that
> device.

Agreed and that device has already been made (by Linn amongst
others)...

The margin on a Klimax DS is pretty good!


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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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Phil Leigh
2011-06-02 19:29:26 UTC
Permalink
There's also the tiny detail that the Touch sounds better than the
Receiver...


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Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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Owen Smith
2011-06-02 18:50:27 UTC
Permalink
maggior;634488 Wrote:
> With the proliferation of touch devices (tablet PCs, smart phones, iPod
> Touch, etc.) I'm not so sure it would make sense for Logitech to
> develop another controller.

I own none of those touch device products (I have a very basic mobile
phone). The only one I'm vaguely considering buying is an iPad as a PDF
reading device (portrait screen is so much better for PDF reading than a
laptop), but currently the iPad screen is physcially a bit too small and
is definitely too low in resolution for PDF reading to work on it for
me. If I had to buy a Squeezebox Touch and a iPod Touch or iPad to
control it, the combined cost of the two would be prohibitive.

The Duet receiver is fantastic, you can hide it anywhere. It seems
madness to discontinue it. Most of the people at work who have a
Squeezebox of any type settled on the Duet because they could hide the
receiver behind their hifi, exactly the same reason I bought it. If
Logitech abandon the Duet then they are effectively giving up on the
hifi seperates market.


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Mnyb
2011-06-02 19:19:40 UTC
Permalink
well prices on iPods or small andriod tablets would outcompete a new
controller 2 , remeber that the controller is/was the expensive part of
the duet package, you can get a laptop for the same price as a
controller nowadays.

The Touch is also a better player then the reciever, as the screen is
not that expensive, to cut cost a reciever 2 has to be more lowfi if
you want it at the same low price.

Smaller CPU ? If you want it screenless it does not have to handle
images or a screen and ditch that onboard server, then you need even
less cpu... etc. and remove the headphone amp and effect speaker too.

but as usual price and BOM ( bill of manufacturing ) is not really
related, pricing is so much more you have to gamble a bit on it's
elusive "market value" what are the indtended custommers preparied to
pay for this.

I'm pretty happy with my Touch as a hifi separate, it has the rigth mix
of price/performance used as a digital tranports it is " perfect " in my
aplication it can not be substansially improved.

if logitech would be really bold they would release a very simple
digital out only box and ditch all analog circuits.

the only features a Touch can not substitute is the price and
formfactor of the reciever , everything else it improves on, but i have
no problems finding a place for it in my hifi ?


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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
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toby10
2011-06-02 19:21:06 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634524 Wrote:
> .....
> The Duet receiver is fantastic, you can hide it anywhere. It seems
> madness to discontinue it. Most of the people at work who have a
> Squeezebox of any type settled on the Duet because they could hide the
> receiver behind their hifi, exactly the same reason I bought it. If
> Logitech abandon the Duet then they are effectively giving up on the
> hifi seperates market.

Simply not true, in fact they have enhanced this very market with
additional features offered on the Touch that are not offered on the
SBR.

- added two additional control points (touch screen and IR)
- added higher resolution playback
- added more native audio formats
- added applets
- added inbuilt Tiny SBS server
- added USB and SD support
- added a better DAC

..... and all at a VERY affordable price I might add.

Touch's footprint is not much bigger than a SBR, it can be hidden quite
easily. Turn off the screen and place it anywhere you wish.
Yes, it costs more because it does more and offers better audio. If
the price or added features are of no consequence to you than buy used
SBR's or SB3's. ;)


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Owen Smith
2011-06-02 20:05:45 UTC
Permalink
toby10;634532 Wrote:
> Simply not true, in fact they have enhanced this very market with
> additional features offered on the Touch that are not offered on the
> SBR.
>
> - added two additional control points (touch screen and IR)
> - added higher resolution playback
> - added more native audio formats
> - added applets
> - added inbuilt Tiny SBS server
> - added USB and SD support
> - added a better DAC
> - added services (Spotify limits official support to Touch or Radio,
> Duet cannot be used)

- More native audio formats are a waste of time, transcode to FLAC in
the server makes perfect sense. In fact I'd argue there's a place for a
Duet receiver type product that can ONLY play FLAC and everything else
is transcoded. Plus a commonly suggested fix for glitches in AAC
playback on the Touch is to transcode it to FLAC in the server...

- added applets? For what? It's a device for playing music, which the
current devices can do anyway.

- inbuilt Tiny SBS server is a waste of time, if you don't want to run
a Squeezebox Server then squeezebox is not the right product for you.

- USB and SD support are a waste of time, any music imported should be
done on the server.

- I use an external DAC anyway, so the better DAC in the Touch means
nothing to me. As someone else said, people in the hifi seperates
market would probably appreciate a device with no analogue outs at
all.

- Spotify not being allowed on the Duet is a politics issue, there's no
reason why the Duet (or Boom) can't support it.

toby10;634532 Wrote:
>
> ..... and all at a VERY affordable price I might add.
>
> Touch's footprint is not much bigger than a SBR, it can be hidden quite
> easily. Turn off the screen and place it anywhere you wish.
> Yes, it costs more because it does more and offers better audio. If
> the price is too steep or the added features are of no consequence to
> you then buy used SBR's or SB3's. ;)

The price is not the problem. I'd happily pay 500 UKP for an audiophile
quality Duet receiver that plays 96/24 and doesn't crash twice a day.

The only reason I don't buy more receivers second hand is precisely
because they crash twice a day and don't play 96/24. The Controller I'm
happy with (except I'm concerned it might die and I won't be able to get
a replacement), I just want an upgraded and more reliable Receiver.


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toby10
2011-06-02 20:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634541 Wrote:
> ....
> The price is not the problem. I'd happily pay 500 UKP for an audiophile
> quality Duet receiver that plays 96/24 and doesn't crash twice a
> day.....

Which is a Touch at half the price you are willing to pay. ;)
My Touch never crashes connecting to the full SBS server, which you
would need to run anyway with a SBR II.

But I'm sure you still just won't be satisfied....


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Owen Smith
2011-06-02 20:37:39 UTC
Permalink
toby10;634545 Wrote:
> Which is a Touch at half the price you are willing to pay. ;)
> My Touch never crashes connecting to the full SBS server, which you
> would need to run anyway with a SBR II.
>
> But I'm sure you still just won't be satisfied....

It's strange, but the thought of using something that has a display and
using it a different way by hiding the display offends my sensibilities.
I don't know why but I just can't do it. The Touch clearly wasn't
intended to be used that way. Plus it doesn't lie flat discreetly out
of the way, I have SCART leads running over the top of the Receiver. A
Touch would not physically fit in the same location. Yes, I'm strange.
But then mist people are in one way or another.


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garym
2011-06-02 20:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634546 Wrote:
> Yes, I'm strange. But then most people are in one way or another.

Particularly those of us that hang out at this forum. ;-)


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toby10
2011-06-02 21:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634546 Wrote:
> It's strange, but the thought of using something that has a display and
> using it a different way by hiding the display offends my
> sensibilities. I don't know why but I just can't do it. The Touch
> clearly wasn't intended to be used that way. Plus it doesn't lie flat
> discreetly out of the way, I have SCART leads running over the top of
> the Receiver. A Touch would not physically fit in the same location.
> Yes, I'm strange. But then most people are in one way or another.

I love strange. ;)

Actually, depending on your A/V setup, a Touch could actually be better
disguised in an A/V rack/shelf and even take up LESS room.
With it's built in stand you could easily hang it upside down, from the
back of the rack/shelf, also giving you better/easier access to it's
inputs & outputs.
It's all in how creative you are. ;)

My SB3 is actually "floating" above my A/V rack with a simple black arm
connected to the back of the A/V rack.
All cables (power lead, ethernet, optical) and the metal support device
are all inside a flat black sleeve which is "suspending" my SB3 above my
A/V rack. The SB3's built in stand is it's support for this setup.
I'm a wire fanatic (far more than I am an audio fanatic) and not a
single wire/cable is visible while viewing my A/V rack from the front
or sides.
The A/V rack is part of built in cabinets so the back is not visible
anyway.


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aubuti
2011-06-02 21:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634546 Wrote:
> It's strange, but the thought of using something that has a display and
> using it a different way by hiding the display offends my
> sensibilities. I don't know why but I just can't do it. The Touch
> clearly wasn't intended to be used that way. Plus it doesn't lie flat
> discreetly out of the way, I have SCART leads running over the top of
> the Receiver. A Touch would not physically fit in the same location.
> Yes, I'm strange. But then most people are in one way or another.
It doesn't really deal with offending your sensibilities, but as a
practical matter: Remove the Touch's stand (it has screws, so no saw
required), put it face down, and the footprint isn't much different
from a SBR.

What amazes me is that you can say -"I like my Squeezebox Duet very
much."- (post #6) when it crashes on you twice a day. I can't remember
either of my SBRs ever "crashing".
.


--
aubuti

Nothing high-end, but music anywhere I want it, and it's '100% wind
powered' (http://www.cleancurrents.com/). 'MSI single-core Atom
mini-desktop'
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856167032)
(Debian Lenny 5.0.6) feeding: Living room: SB Touch > 'NAD C325 BEE'
(http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C-325BEE-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier?products/hifi-amplifiers/C325BEE-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier)
> 'Vandersteen 1' (http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/1clit.html);
Kitchen/Dining: 'SB2'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050428023747/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
> 'AudioSource Amp100'
(http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-2-Channel-Bridgeable-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6)
> 2 pair of 'Polk RC60i'
(http://www.polkaudio.com/customaudio/rci/index.php?s=rc60i); Basement:
'SB2'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050428023747/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
> 'JVC JA-S44'
(http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204813) > 'ESS
Tempest LS8'
(http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/205237-ess_tempest_ls_8_speakers/);
Bedroom: Boom; Study: SB Radio; Backyard deck: 'SB Receiver'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080124175538/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
> 'AudioSource Amp100'
(http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-2-Channel-Bridgeable-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6)
> 'Polk Atrium 45'
(http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/atrium/index.php#atrium45); Kid's
bedroom: 'SB3'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20051210015952/http://slimdevices.com/)
> 'Klipsch ProMedia 2.0'
(http://www.klipsch.com.cn/na-en/products/promedia-ultra-2-0-overview/);
Roaming controllers: iPod touch with iPeng, 3 'SB Duet'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080124175538/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
Controllers, 'Nokia N800'
(http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-n800-r6); Limbo:one
more 'SBR'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080124175538/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
http://www.last.fm/user/aubuti/
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garym
2011-06-02 21:31:15 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;634555 Wrote:
> I can't remember either of my SBRs ever "crashing".
> .

The 9 months or so I used the receiver, it never crashed a single time
(it was ethernet connected). And my 3 touch units are rock solid for
months at a time (all connected to SbS on a vortexbox appliance on
24/7). The only time I reboot anything is after an update, etc.


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Owen Smith
2011-06-04 17:33:31 UTC
Permalink
garym;634557 Wrote:
> The 9 months or so I used the receiver, it never crashed a single time
> (it was ethernet connected). And my 3 touch units are rock solid for
> months at a time (all connected to SbS on a vortexbox appliance on
> 24/7). The only time I reboot anything is after an update, etc.

My Duet receiver is on wireless, but the router is only about 1.5
metres away from it and the signal strength/quality is good.

I should add the caveat that pretty much the only time the Receiver
crashes is when playing BBC stuff through Triode's iPlayer plugin (not
that I'm saying anything is wrong with the plugin). The BBC's web sites
and streams are unreliable, it's as if the Receiver isn't good at
handling an dodgy stream. Other Internet radio stations (Classic FM,
Avro Baroque mainly) and local FLACs from my server don't ever crash
the Receiver.


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toby10
2011-06-02 20:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Spotify & politics: you bet, contact the RIAA or Sound Exchange

Audio only Applets: BBC radio and fixed volume absent any server at
all

FLAC only player is just silly, talk about going the wrong way for a
"separates" component

AAC native support is needed for the growing number of AAC streams

USB, SD, player with screen, customizable screens (Applets), inbuilt
server (no computer needed) have been long standing requests by many SB
users.
They surely could have done better with USB, SD, TinySC support, but
they did try to offer a player that their users were asking for.
Features you don't want, understandably. But then just don't use those
features, just like I never use the Touch's IR remote, or someone else
will never touch the screen.
Keep in mind all of these features you do not want actually make a
Touch type device less expensive as these features are a big attraction
for the mass market.
Per unit production costs are greatly reduced when the production scale
is much larger.
To build your player (no screen, just FLAC, no services, no
customizations, can only be used with a full SBS server, a device never
meant to be seen, etc...) would mean very low demand = low production
numbers = much higher per unit price. So I'd be very happy these
non-audiophile features are attracting the mass market which gets you
everything you want (I think) at an extremely low price point.

Your definition of "better" is better audio (analog and/or digital) and
higher resolution audio support, that is exactly what Touch delivers and
at half the price you said you were willing to pay. So I just don't get
what you are complaining about. Or am I missing something (which is
quite possible my friend)?


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Owen Smith
2011-06-04 17:43:59 UTC
Permalink
toby10;634549 Wrote:
> FLAC only player is just silly, talk about going the wrong way for a
> "separates" component
>
> AAC native support is needed for the growing number of AAC streams)

There will always be newer stream formats not envisaged when a device
was built. As such chasing being able to play everything natively is
doomed to failure. So I prefer the approach of simplifying the Receiver
(simpler is more reliable) and transcode everything in the server.

I bought my Duet for playing downloaded FLACs from B&W Society of Sound
and ripped CDs. The Internet radio is a bonus, and I've actually gone
back to FM for a lot of my radio listening anyway for better sound
quality (compared to 128K MP3).

toby10;634549 Wrote:
> USB, SD, player with screen, customizable screens (Applets), inbuilt
> server (no computer needed) have been long standing requests by many SB
> users.
> They surely could have done better with USB, SD, TinySC support, but
> they did try to offer a player that their users were asking for.
> Features you don't want, understandably. But then just don't use those
> features, just like I never use the Touch's IR remote, or someone else
> will choose to never touch the screen.

You are implying that the presence of the extra features that I don't
want does no harm. I'd require convincing. First of all the Touch
consumes considerably more power (more than double) than the Receiver,
and this matters for something I leave on 24/7 (both cost wise and
carbon footprint). Second there's all the electrical noise that the
extra items create, the LCD will contain inverters for the LCD drive
for example which it may not be possible to disable. Third the device
is more complicated, and that greater complexity inevitably leads to
more software bugs and reliability issues.


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aubuti
2011-06-04 20:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634821 Wrote:
> There will always be newer stream formats not envisaged when a device
> was built. As such chasing being able to play everything natively is
> doomed to failure. So I prefer the approach of simplifying the Receiver
> (simpler is more reliable) and transcode everything in the server.
Server-side decoding is great. Unless you're one of the many people who
buy a SB planning to use it primarily with mysb.com. I'm not one of
those people, but I think one needs to recognize the inherent
compromises involved in designing a mass-market item. And the inherent
cost involved in designing one that ticks all of your boxes, and
absolutely nothing else.

Owen Smith;634821 Wrote:
> You are implying that the presence of the extra features that I don't
> want does no harm. I'd require convincing. First of all the Touch
> consumes considerably more power (more than double) than the Receiver,
> and this matters for something I leave on 24/7 (both cost wise and
> carbon footprint). Second there's all the electrical noise that the
> extra items create, the LCD will contain inverters for the LCD drive
> for example which it may not be possible to disable. Third the device
> is more complicated, and that greater complexity inevitably leads to
> more software bugs and reliability issues.
First, it's simply false that a Touch consumes "more than double" power
than a SBR. I've put meters on mine and they're both in the 3-4w range.
Second, extra items may create more electrical noise. If we follow your
implicit but important assumption of keeping everything else the same,
that makes more noise in the system. How much of that one can actually
in the sound output is an open question. And for the specific
comparison of Touch and SBR (when other things aren't kept equal) there
are other improvements in the Touch's signal path that lead to cleaner
sound output despite any noise from the LCD screen. I don't have
"golden ears", but even I can hear the difference when I A/B my Touch
and SBR.

The third assertion fails to consider that the device is an interaction
of hardware and software, not only software. A big limitation of the
current SBR is the maxed out memory on the ip3k platform. Give it a new
platform, and it will likely be more capable and more complex. Will it
inevitably have more software bugs and reliability problems? I don't
think so. Even on the same platform, my SB2 and SB3 are more
complicated than my SBR, but if anything they are more reliable. I
don't have a Transporter, but it is clearly more complex than any other
SB, and I don't believe it is any less reliable.

It's fine to talk about the product that is perfect for your needs. If
you find it, congratulations. But most of us have to make do with the
compromises of features-I-don't-need and features-I-still-want that are
part and parcel of a mass market product.


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Owen Smith
2011-06-05 15:37:01 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;634841 Wrote:
> (b) please keep in mind that realistically it is unlikely you will ever
> get your idea of a perfectly-featured SB, because even though your
> preferences make some sense, they deviate quite a bit from the
> mainstream market.

Hmm, clearly Logitech thought the Duet product was worth producing
originally or they'd never have brought it out. I'd just like an
upgraded version.


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aubuti
2011-06-05 16:06:21 UTC
Permalink
I understand that. I'm just saying that you'll probably have a long
wait.


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toby10
2011-06-05 18:52:50 UTC
Permalink
I do agree, Avro is excellent, both their classical stations and their
easy listening station. Try a search for LINN for another great
classical stream at 320k.

Also, for variety, try the ShoutCast App, set your bitrate limit to
192k or 256k. Once a bitrate limit is set any subsequent menu
navigation, searches, genres, etc.. within ShoutCast will only display
streams at or above your selected bitrate limit (a feature SORELY
absent on the RadioTime feeds IMHO). At 192k ShoutCast has about 21
stations within the classical genre menu item, including the Avro's.
;)


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RooKie
2011-06-06 16:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the replies people but I am still unsure whether to buy a
Duet now. I do not have a smartphone so would not be able to control
via an App. It is the hand controler that was the main selling point
for me - sit anywhere and control the music from a NAS or PC.

Any views on whether the Duet has a rival or should I buy into obsolete
technology if there is no alternative?

Thanks.


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toby10
2011-06-06 16:35:00 UTC
Permalink
Not obsolete, just discontinued and replaced with an updated player
(Touch).
If the Duet is going to suit your current needs then I'd get a Duet.
If down the road you need/desire the updated capabilities of the Touch
then you can always update to a Touch and control both Touch and Duet
Receiver with your Controller. ;)


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aubuti
2011-06-06 17:24:14 UTC
Permalink
And despite the smiley, toby10 isn't joking when he talks about you
having both a Touch and a Duet in your future. A well-known feature of
Squeezeboxes is that you can't have just one -- they like to spring up
in every room of your home.


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RooKie
2011-06-06 20:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Thanks - so the way to keep up to date would be a Touch and a
Controller? It seems a bit expensive going down that route. Is there
any issues with the controller - I have read about battery life
problems?

Does anyone know if my NAS (D-Link DNS320) will work with the Duet?

Sorry to keep asking questions but I want to get it right.

Cheers.


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w3wilkes
2011-06-06 22:02:50 UTC
Permalink
I don't think you'd be at all disappointed with a Duet! I have 2 of them
and couldn't be happier. My music is mostly mp3 VBR at the highest
quality levels ripped with Nero and now EAC from my own CD's. My
primary Duet receiver is analog attached to my Stereo (Sony STR-DB1070)
when in stereo mode it drives ADS-L810 speakers. To my and my wife's
"not golden, well aged ears" the sound is excellent.


--
w3wilkes

2 Duets - 1 for upstairs and 1 for downstairs
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aubuti
2011-06-06 22:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Instead of a Touch + Controller I would recommend a Touch + a different
handheld device as a controller. It could be an iPhone, or an iPod
Touch, or an Android device (phone, tablet, etc).

I'm not that familiar with Android devices, but an iPod Touch costs
less than an SB Controller, and it is better at controlling SBs. You
can use the free software from Logitech, or use the 3rd party iPeng app
($10 and worth mch more). The iPod touch can also be used for other
things, such as portable player, web browser, etc. If you're looking to
save more money, look at the refurbished iPod Touches that are
available. I recently got a 3rd generation 32gb iPod Touch for US$
200.

I have 3 SB Controllers, and the battery life on them has been fine. I
replaced one battery after about 3 years. The others are still going.

As for your NAS working with the Duet, the real question is can you
install Squeezebox Server (SBS) on the NAS. I'm not familiar with that
model, but I know some people have SBS running on some D-Link models.
Do a search through the 3rd Party Hardware forum (where most NAS topics
are discussed) to see if anyone has reports of success/failure on your
model.


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w3wilkes
2011-06-06 22:36:32 UTC
Permalink
If you're in the US you can pick up a Duet on Amazon for $206 - free
shipping.
http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Squeezebox-Wi-Fi-Internet-Radio/dp/B0013IWYHU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307399695&sr=8-1


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slate
2011-06-10 19:10:35 UTC
Permalink
w3wilkes;635135 Wrote:
> If you're in the US you can pick up a Duet on Amazon for $206 - free
> shipping.
> http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Squeezebox-Wi-Fi-Internet-Radio/dp/B0013IWYHU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307399695&sr=8-1

It seems that it will be on offer for a similar price in the Danish
branch of Elgiganten next week.... 1199 DKr


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Main: Receiver (Audiocom) -> Beresford Caiman+ (Gatorized) -> Carver
A-500x -> B&W 704
Office: Receiver -> Luxman L-210 -> Stax SR84 Pro/Superlux HD668B
Server: Zotac IONITX-A, 4 GB, 1 TB WD EADS, Win7 w. 7.6 (SQLite w. High
Mem)
Tied together by D-Link DIR-655 + DGS-1008D
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TheLastMan
2011-06-07 14:51:55 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;635130 Wrote:
> The iPod touch can also be used for other things, such as portable
> player, web browser, etc.
Just on this point, I like the Controller precisely *because* it can
only be used to control the music players.

If I left an iPod Touch in a dock waiting to be used to control music
it would never be there when I need it. One of the kids would be
playing Doodle Jump on it, or tweeting, or e-mailing, or browsing the
web or the wife will be jogging round the block with Bob Dylan.

By contrast the Controller is always there when SB players need
controlling precisely because it is so boringly uni-functional.

For me the alternatives are not a Controller or an iPod Touch but 1x
Controller or 5x iPod Touches!


--
TheLastMan

Matt
http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK
*SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers)
*Server:* Synology DS107+ NAS (with firmware 2.3-1157) running
Squeezebox Server 7.5.3 on Synology Package Manager
*Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as
access points
*Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, B&W CM2 speakers
*Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, B&W 686 speakers
*Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline.
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bluegaspode
2011-06-07 15:46:45 UTC
Permalink
TheLastMan;635214 Wrote:
> By contrast the Controller is always there when SB players need
> controlling precisely because it is so boringly uni-functional.
>
> For me the alternatives are not a Controller or an iPod Touch but 1x
> Controller or 5x iPod Touches!

I totally agree.
The Controller in its cradle is the only constant in our house :)


--
bluegaspode

Did you know: *'SqueezePlayer' (www.squeezeplayer.com)* will stream all
your music to your Android device. Take your music everywhere!
Remote Control + Streaming to your iPad? *'Squeezebox + iPad =
SqueezePad ' (www.squeezepad.com)*
Want to see a Weather Forecast on your Radio/Touch/Controller ? => why
not try my 'Weather Forecast Applet'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73827)
Want to use the Headphones with your Controller ? => why not try my
'Headphone Switcher Applet'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67139)
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maggior
2011-06-07 21:50:48 UTC
Permalink
bluegaspode;635227 Wrote:
> I totally agree.
> The Controller in its cradle is the only constant in our house :)

Same here, except I have squeezeboxes in every room but the dining
room. Odds are if I need the controller, it's not near where I am. I
do however carry my iPod Touch around with me, so it's more convenient
for me to use it as my controller.

The controller sits by the receiver we have in the kitchen. So it
stays put so anybody is guaranteed to be able to use it to play music
in the kitchen.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod
Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.0, MusicIP, and
SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 34,767 songs, 2,776 albums, 505 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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RooKie
2011-06-07 22:03:17 UTC
Permalink
Again - many thanks for informative and prompt replies. I am going to go
with the Duet - if only for the ease of use and portability of the
controller.

I will have to research the D-Link NAS to see if the SBR can run on it
but I would be surprised if it would not.

Cheers.

RooKie (UK)


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garym
2011-06-07 22:50:41 UTC
Permalink
RooKie;635313 Wrote:
> Again - many thanks for informative and prompt replies. I am going to go
> with the Duet - if only for the ease of use and portability of the
> controller.
>
> I will have to research the D-Link NAS to see if the SBR can run on it
> but I would be surprised if it would not.
>
> Cheers.
>
> RooKie (UK)

re: Dlink and SbS

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85958


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RooKie
2011-06-10 17:02:25 UTC
Permalink
Thanks garym


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RonM
2011-06-07 19:47:13 UTC
Permalink
RooKie;635095 Wrote:
> Thanks for the replies people but I am still unsure whether to buy a
> Duet now. I do not have a smartphone so would not be able to control
> via an App. It is the hand controler that was the main selling point
> for me - sit anywhere and control the music from a NAS or PC.
>
> Any views on whether the Duet has a rival or should I buy into obsolete
> technology if there is no alternative?
>
> Thanks.

I have a Transporter, two Duets and two Booms; one of the duet
Receivers is in semi-retirement, awaiting a role; both of the
Controllers are in use, one on the still-active Receiver and the other
on the Transporter. Both are used to control the Booms when
necessary.

I also spotted a Controller on a very cheap deal on the Canadian Amazon
site (probably clearing out their stock, the Canadian site no longer
sells the Controller), and bought it, so I now have a backup.

In my view, if you are not going for the best audiophile quality, the
Duet is an excellent product, well worth hunting down -- and do hunt,
there are good buys available. If you subsequently decide to upgrade
to a Touch, you'll have the Controller to use with it.

I'm iDevice-less, and use a BlackBerry as my primary mobile (plus a
cheap old one for various personal uses), so don't have the mobile
device to install iPeng or the android app or whatever. I'd check
those out if I got an appropriate device, but I can't imaging not using
the convenience of the Controller most of the time, even though the
artwork image sucks.

Ron


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Owen Smith
2011-06-11 18:44:50 UTC
Permalink
RonM;635270 Wrote:
> As an aside, I have a 24/7 low-power full-function tiny computer running
> as an audio server except when I'm away on holidays or whatever (a
> FitPC, less than 5W fully engaged), but my devices are always turned
> off when not in use. Including the Controller, which sadly means that
> interminable start-up time. But I can live with it.

My RipNAS consumes about 4W so is also left on 24/7. I leave the
Controller on all the time (as well as the Receiver), I find the
start-up too interminable. But all of the Squeezebox gear plus the
RipNAS put together consume less power than the Airport Extreme which
is also on all the time. Again the startup time is too long to do
anything else.

When I bought my Duet I originally ran the server on my laptop and had
to start everything up to use the Duet. I found I wasn't using it
because it was too much effort and took too long to start everything
up. I concluded I either had to buy a NAS and run the network plus Duet
24/7, or sell the Duet.


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aubuti
2011-06-11 20:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Sounds like the RipNAS was a good choice in its own right, but
presumably as an alternative you could have had the laptop suspend
between sessions instead of doing a full shutdown, and then be up and
running in 2-4 seconds instead of waiting for it to boot.


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Owen Smith
2011-06-11 21:47:25 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;635944 Wrote:
> Sounds like the RipNAS was a good choice in its own right, but
> presumably as an alternative you could have had the laptop suspend
> between sessions instead of doing a full shutdown, and then be up and
> running in 2-4 seconds instead of waiting for it to boot.

I don't regard laptops as machines that should be powered on and
connected up (even in suspend mode) 24/7. The very nature of a laptop
being high performance yet compact leads to issues if you push them too
hard in my experience. To use a phrase from the world of eletric motors
or battery chargers they are "Not continuously rated".

The other problem I found was that at the time I didn't have any wired
networking near the laptop, it was wireless only. So although the
Squeezebox Server ran when I wasn't logged in to the laptop, it
wouldn't connect to a network because which network Vista connects to
is controlled by which user is logged in. This would also have been a
problem with the Suspend theory, I'd have had to be logged in all the
time which I don't regard as a good idea. I bought the Airport Extreme
to connect the RipNAS to the network since it has no wifi. It was a
bonus that the Airport Extreme allowed a hard wired connection for the
laptop, permitting gigabit speeds transferring files between laptop and
RipNAS.


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Phil Leigh
2011-06-11 22:07:51 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;635951 Wrote:
> I don't regard laptops as machines that should be powered on and
> connected up (even in suspend mode) 24/7. The very nature of a laptop
> being high performance yet compact leads to issues if you push them too
> hard in my experience. To use a phrase from the world of eletric motors
> or battery chargers they are "Not continuously rated".
>
>
this is not correct - laptops are rated for the same duty cycle as any
other domestic PC. They can be left on 24/7 (with or without S3+ sleep)


--
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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
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Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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Owen Smith
2011-06-12 01:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;635955 Wrote:
> this is not correct - laptops are rated for the same duty cycle as any
> other domestic PC. They can be left on 24/7 (with or without S3+ sleep)

I don't agree. We'll have to differ on it.


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maggior
2011-06-12 02:16:08 UTC
Permalink
It probably depends on the laptop, just like some desktops may not like
being on 24/7 either. Many people use laptops in docking stations as
workstations now in work environments, so they are on 8+ hours all day.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod
Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.0, MusicIP, and
SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 34,767 songs, 2,776 albums, 505 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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RonM
2011-06-12 02:42:40 UTC
Permalink
I still think that a dedicated low-power special-purpose computer is the
way to go for a 24/7 server. Could be a NAS device, but these aren't
always configured to optimize server functions. I've never regretted
springing the extra (very few) bucks for the FitPC (and there are
similar alternatives). Very solid build, very small, more than enough
processing power for SBS.

You can run it with an internal drive (I bought it discless and
installed a 500gb drive), or buy it with a drive (standard or SSD) and
Windows or Linux pre-installed, and use an external drive for the music
content.

R.


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Phil Leigh
2011-06-12 08:33:21 UTC
Permalink
maggior;635969 Wrote:
> It probably depends on the laptop, just like some desktops may not like
> being on 24/7 either. Many people use laptops in docking stations as
> workstations now in work environments, so they are on 8+ hours all day.

Precisely.

Let's stick to facts. Any electrical device that is NOT rated for
continuous use MUST bear a prominent safety label warning the user
about the maximum duty cycle. I've used/owned well over 50
laptops/portables and have yet to see such a warning.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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slate
2011-06-12 10:41:19 UTC
Permalink
maggior;635969 Wrote:
> It probably depends on the laptop, just like some desktops may not like
> being on 24/7 either. Many people use laptops in docking stations as
> workstations now in work environments, so they are on 8+ hours all day.

In my work enviroment everybody is using laptops in docking stations...
with a few exceptions.
Remember that a modern laptop does not generate much heat; and the wear
and tear is greatly reduced. Especially with and SSD.
Just remember that dust cleaning is just as important for a laptop as a
stationary.
Granted a stationary can survive more dust cough cough


--
slate

Main: Receiver (Audiocom) -> Beresford Caiman+ (Gatorized) -> Carver
A-500x -> B&W 704
Office: Receiver -> Luxman L-210 -> Stax SR84 Pro/Superlux HD668B
Server: Zotac IONITX-A, 4 GB, 1 TB WD EADS, Win7 w. 7.6 (SQLite w. High
Mem)
Tied together by D-Link DIR-655 + DGS-1008D
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socistep
2011-06-14 16:01:59 UTC
Permalink
The Duet was the first Squeezebox product I bought 3 years ago, however
its now boxed away and not used.

Reasons why is that I personally found the touch to be a much better
product for my needs, also it sounded a lot better, I did some
comparisons between Touch and Duet into my headphone amp/Senn HD650s
and the Touch was a lot better.

That leaves the controller, what I've found is that I tend to use
iPeng/Squeezecommander on my girlfriend and my smartphones, the players
themselves and also the little remote that came with the touch more then
the Duet controller so that also hasn't been used.

I've got mixed feelings about the Duet, on one hand it got me into the
world of Squeezebox but on the other it was surpassed quite quickly for
me


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TheLastMan
2011-06-15 08:55:50 UTC
Permalink
socistep;636345 Wrote:
> The Duet was the first Squeezebox product I bought 3 years ago, however
> its now boxed away and not used.
>
> Reasons why is that I personally found the touch to be a much better
> product for my needs, also it sounded a lot better, I did some
> comparisons between Touch and Duet into my headphone amp/Senn HD650s
> and the Touch was a lot better.
>
> That leaves the controller, what I've found is that I tend to use
> iPeng/Squeezecommander on my girlfriend and my smartphones, the players
> themselves and also the little remote that came with the touch more then
> the Duet controller so that also hasn't been used.
>
> I've got mixed feelings about the Duet, on one hand it got me into the
> world of Squeezebox but on the other it was surpassed quite quickly for
> me
Just really goes to show how the old agage "horses for courses" still
applies (in my case a 51 year old horse!).

I have heard both the Touch and the Duet and, to be honest, could not
tell the difference. However when you are sharing a house with 5 other
people you cannot play music at a volume that would reveal any
differences anyway.

Just had my annual medical and a hearing test. A rather steep roll-off
in my perception of high frequencies at 8khz and above. This forces
the brain to "turn up the gain" on high frequencies which just
amplifies noise in the signal from the ears which is heard as high
frequency tinitus. So not surprising I cannot tell any difference!

See my previous note on using an iPod Touch or smartphone as a
controller. With 3 children around, an iThing simply would not be there
when I needed it! Already my wife and I can never find our smartphones
which have usually been snaffled by some kid to play a game.

I am a bit short sighted (1.5 diopter in each eye) which means I would
need my glasses to read the display on the Touch if it were more than 4
feet away. Unfortunately, like most people my age, I cannot clearly see
close-up stuff (eg infrared remote) if I have my glasses on. The
Touch/remote combination is simply not practical in my case. More
annoying than useful.

With the Controller I don't need my glasses on to see the display or
use the controls, so it is just much more practical.

Its a pity they have scrapped the Controller. I am thinking of buying
another before they disappear - just to keep as a backup in case my
current one fails. Either that or buy all my kids iThings so they are
not forever nicking mine!


--
TheLastMan

Matt
http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK
*SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers)
*Server:* Synology DS107+ NAS (with firmware 2.3-1157) running
Squeezebox Server 7.5.3 on Synology Package Manager
*Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as
access points
*Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, B&W CM2 speakers
*Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, B&W 686 speakers
*Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline.
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alexander_binder
2011-08-10 08:26:50 UTC
Permalink
I also find to have a dedicated device better than using my smartphone,
first I have a Blackberry and there is no application. Then my
Controller spends most of the time next to my bed. When you don't have
to look to skip song or change volume nothing beats physical buttons.

And in my opinion, an iPad or other tables are too big to be a remote
contrle.

But I hope they will do a follow up product that would be tweaked,
screen quality is one. And I guess by now you can also go for better
battery life.

Alex


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craigf
2011-08-23 00:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Since this seems to be the official complaint thread about the
Duet/Controller being EOL'ed, I'll add my voice, as I'm seriously
unhappy about this.

When it came out, the Duet was a direct substitute for the Sonos
systems out at the time. I wasn't a fan of Sonos -- the user experience
was OK, but the price was just obscene. So, at about half the price, the
Squeezebox got within reason (for me) and I've been a huge fan ever
since.

We have home theater setups throughout the house, and an unobtrusive
little box is just perfect for stashing away. Plus, the controller goes
with me as I roam around the house, taking care of chores, whatever.
Sure, my smartphone can do it, too, but I'm a huge fan of physical
buttons *and* I don't like tying up my phone with a battery-intensive
operation like that if I can use an excellent dedicated device.

Plus, with the playback beta feature, the controller makes a great ad
hoc player for when you need some music in a place where there's not a
stereo (the garage, in my pocket while mowing the yard, etc.).

Really, I just find it unfathomable that a company would discard a
product that flexible, well-designed, and ideally suited to its
purpose. Sure, it may not be as flashy as something with a bigger
screen, but it's more mobile and power-friendly as a result.

Anyway, I could go on, but I won't. Suffice to say that I am unhappy
enough with this decision that I just bought a new Duet package simply
to keep in my closet as a spare in case any of our units ever fail.
Because, if I had to replace our system now, it'd have to be Sonos, as
none of Logitech's current products meet our needs nearly as well as
the Duet does.


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w3wilkes
2011-08-23 01:28:19 UTC
Permalink
@craigf, 100% agree on all counts. And there are those of us that do NOT
have smartphones and probably never will!


--
w3wilkes

2 Duets - 1 for upstairs and 1 for downstairs
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Mnyb
2011-08-23 04:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Those of you that need glasses, should have a look at the interface on a
Pad of somekind ( apple or andriod ) but even if that pad is not used as
phone it will still be snaffled by the kids and coerced in to game play
and iPod duties.

a Pad can also have very nice apps that works as a programable remote
but, better i removed all 6 remotes from my coffe table and placed an
iPad there, you with kids may have to drill a hole trough it and chain
it to the livingroom floor :)

But the controller does see ocasional use, maybe a new controller
hardware I think some people thougth it was expensive , maybe it could
be better and cheaper with todays tech.


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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Owen Smith
2011-08-24 09:49:47 UTC
Permalink
craigf;652004 Wrote:
> When it came out, the Duet was a direct substitute for the Sonos systems
> out at the time. I wasn't a fan of Sonos -- the user experience was OK,
> but the price was just obscene. So, at about half the price, the
> Squeezebox got within reason (for me) and I've been a huge fan ever
> since.

I'm not as price sensitive and I could have bought Sonos. But it only
handles 44.1/16 sample rate music and if you try to play anything else
you get silence, it doesn't even transcode. That was the deal breaker
with Sonos for me, I was looking for something to play my 48/24 FLACs
from B&W Society of Sound. Additionally the Sonos stuff (eg. zone
player to connect to hifi) is quite large and bulky and may not have
fitted as well.

I've bought a spare Squeezebox Controller since that's the part I can't
do without. I could potentially use a Touch hidden behind the hifi
instead of the Duet Receiver, and I am starting to look at 96/24 and
wishing the Duet would play it natively without transcode.

w3wilkes;652021 Wrote:
> @craigf, 100% agree on all counts. And there are those of us that do NOT
> have smartphones and probably never will!

Same here, the chances of me having a smartphone seem to be quite low.
I have to be careful to make enough calls to keep my pay-as-you-go SIM
from expiring. My phone is for emergencies, and so that my mum can text
me :-).


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HeadBanger
2011-08-25 15:09:22 UTC
Permalink
craigf;652004 Wrote:
> none of Logitech's current products meets our needs nearly as well as
> the Duet does.

Totally agree and I really would like to see an updated Receiver/Duet
from Logitech. Unfortunately, I think that Logitech may abandon the
audio only streaming devices altogether and concentrate on the likes of
the Revue.


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pcourtney
2011-08-25 16:17:56 UTC
Permalink
craigf;652004 Wrote:
> none of Logitech's current products meets our needs nearly as well as
> the Duet does

same here, in fact I have now bought another 2 Duet receivers from
Richer Sounds, and may buy some more, just to put one in every room
where I want to have an AP ( WiFi Access Point)

Richer have 2 left in Glasgow show at £150 each, and one left in Milton
Keynes

http://www.richersounds.com/showclearanceproduct/LOGI-SQUEEZEBOX-DUET/Logitech+Squeezebox+Duet.html


--
pcourtney

WiFi Only, mainly Netgear DG834GT + WNR2000 AP's
ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc 1GB RAM running SBS 7.6.1
Squeezebox Duet Receivers x 3
iPad2 running the Remote App from Logitech
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TheLastMan
2011-08-26 09:29:31 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;652769 Wrote:
> same here, in fact I have now bought another 2 Duet receivers from
> Richer Sounds, and may buy some more, just to put one in every room
> where I want to have an AP ( WiFi Access Point)
>
> Richer have 2 left in Glasgow show at £150 each, and one left in Milton
> Keynes
>
> http://www.richersounds.com/showclearanceproduct/LOGI-SQUEEZEBOX-DUET/Logitech+Squeezebox+Duet.html

Whoa, that is expensive! These were available a few weeks ago at around
£100.

To me it is not the Receiver that is the great thing about the Duet it
is the Controller. The Touch is a much more capable device than the
Receiver in many ways as it runs a much more useful firmware. It can
play more formats natively without transcoding on the server, it plays
higher resolution files, it can be reprogrammed more easily and so on.
What is more you can pick them up in plenty of places for around £200.
To me, the extra capabilities of the Touch are well worth the extra
£50.

If I had the cash I would replace my two Receivers with Touches, even
though the display is superfluous for my requirements.


--
TheLastMan

Matt
http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK
*SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers)
*Server:* Synology DS107+ NAS (with firmware 2.3-1157) running
Squeezebox Server 7.5.1 on Synology Package Manager
*Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as
access points
*Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, B&W CM2 speakers
*Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, B&W 686 speakers
*Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline.
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pcourtney
2011-08-26 11:54:48 UTC
Permalink
the price that Richer Sounds had for the Squeezebox £150, included both
the Duet receiver and the remote controller, the Amazon price is just
for the Duet Receiver, maybe you can buy the Squeezebox Remote
Controller on its own for £50, maybe not, either way I am not too
bothered

the spec of the Duet Receiver is just fine for me though, as I only
have WAV files, can't be bothered with FLAC or MP3, I just use EAC to
rip CD's to my old NAS, even though I only have 4 x 250gb drives at the
moment, using X-RAID I have a useable 750gb, and all my best 1200 CD's
are on the NAS, my collection is small but quality, that's all I want !


I have 3 Duets, and 3 Musical Fidelity X-CAN v2 amps around the house,
mainly using classic headphones like the AKG K-340, this combo provides
me with super sq (sound quality) to my ears, like I say I am pretty
pleased overall with the Duet receiver and playing wav files through
its in built 24-bit Wolfson WM8501 DAC sounds pleasant enough to me.

I have also used the coax optical out of the Duet to various DAC's over
the years, but to be honest I cannot perceive too much difference in the
sq area to be overly concerned whether I use an external DAC or not. I
think the Duet scores really well for me in the "value for money"
stakes, I may mod the Duet so that it uses a rechargeable PP3 battery (
9v 600mA ), then I can use it in the garden with my portable headphone
amp that I use when I am travelling around, but other than that, I
can't fault it too much, and it does what is says on the tin, so to
speak !


--
pcourtney

WiFi Only, mainly Netgear DG834GT + WNR2000 AP's
ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc 1GB RAM running SBS 7.6.1
Squeezebox Duet Receivers x 3
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aubuti
2011-08-26 12:36:31 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;653007 Wrote:
> the spec of the Duet Receiver is just fine for me though, as I only have
> WAV files, can't be bothered with FLAC or MP3, I just use EAC to rip
> CD's to my old NAS, even though I only have 4 x 250gb drives at the
> moment, using X-RAID I have a useable 750gb, and all my best 1200 CD's
> are on the NAS, my collection is small but quality, that's all I want !
To really get the most out of SBs you would be better off using a codec
that has proper tagging support, such as FLAC. The sound quality is 100%
identical to WAV, because lossless is lossless. Encoding to FLAC can be
completely integrated with ripping via EAC, so it's hard for me to see
what the "bother" is. The real bother may come when you run out of disk
space because your WAVs take up 2-3 times more space than they need to,
or when you have scanning/browsing issues because your WAV files don't
have proper tags.


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pcourtney
2011-08-26 19:41:47 UTC
Permalink
I disagree with you (and this forum should be able to handle a
difference of opinion I would hope)

First off; I have compared FLAC file sizes with WAV sizes and you are
way off beam sunshine, and I suggest in future that you back up your
facts before you post mindlessly, my analysis suggests that if I use
FLAC, then my file sizes only reduce by about 52%, given that hard
drives are absurdly cheap, and that I use X-RAID on my ReadyNAS box, it
really does not matter to me, you may have smaller hard drives and
budget constraints which force you to use FLAC, that is your problem,
and to be honest why should either of us really care, I thank you for
your advice which may have had some merit 5 years ago, but all of my
music collection is ripped to wav (Redbook) and if I want to convert to
anything in the future (maybe FLAC maybe not) I will be handily placed
to do so if I want to for whatever reason.

Second; andyg (slimdevices developer) is on record as saying, and I
quote

"SBS supports ID3-tagged WAV files but the ID3 tag has to be in a RIFF
chunk called 'ID32' or 'ID3 '"

I much prefer to have it from the horses mouth rather than your
misguided belief that SBS cannot read ID3 tags in WAV files, if you
don't believe Andy, then just rip any CD to WAV on your computer,
download Audioshell (freeware)and then open "Windows Explorer", right
click on the WAV file, and hit "Properties", use "AudioShell Tag
Editor" and enter some info, then get SBS to do a rescan and search for
the CD, let me know if that works, just purely for the sake of it, so we
can get away from the stupid assumption that you cannot tag WAV files
anymore, it's so last century :-)


--
pcourtney

WiFi Only, mainly Netgear DG834GT + WNR2000 AP's
ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc 1GB RAM running SBS 7.6.1
Squeezebox Duet Receivers x 3
iPad2 running the Remote App from Logitech
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maggior
2011-08-26 20:11:38 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;653114 Wrote:
> so we can get away from the stupid assumption that you cannot tag WAV
> files anymore, it's so last century :-)

Wow that was so uncalled for. You realize that WAV files are so last
century! Don't hold your breath waiting for this convoluted tagging
scheme to become some sort of widely accepted standard.

You can tag FLAC files with ID3 tags...doesn't mean you should do it.

I think most people here "have budget" to accomodate all of their music
in WAV rather than FLAC - doesn't mean it makes sense to do so.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod
Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.5, MusicIP, and
SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 37,509 songs, 2,934 albums, 515 artists.
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Mnyb
2011-08-26 20:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Huh only 52% :) that's good enough for me then my 3TB + Backups last a
long time. flac has better tag support that works on more software and
hardware players. SBS is among the few that support wav tags ? can you
embedd artwork in wav files ?
You also save network bandwith with flac this is good if one use wifi
and let the squeezebox decode the flac.

I cant see any negative side of using flac ?

SBS is normaly setup to stream as flac, so it is converting wav to flac
anyway ( to save bandwith ) if you don't disable that function in file
types setting, doing so may also disable other transcoding abilities
the server has.
so it's just simpler to use flac in the sbs context .
historically flac in one file per song is the most well tested and
least buggy option in sbs, sbs supports many formats, but as we all
know testing is a bit so so nowdays


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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pcourtney
2011-08-26 21:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;653128 Wrote:
> I cant see any negative side of using flac
>

nor can I, just don't force it down the necks of people who are quite
happy sticking with Redbook for the foreseeable future :-)


--
pcourtney

WiFi Only, mainly Netgear DG834GT + WNR2000 AP's
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Squeezebox Duet Receivers x 3
iPad2 running the Remote App from Logitech
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pcourtney
2011-08-26 22:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;653128 Wrote:
> SBS is normaly setup to stream as flac, so it is converting wav to flac
> anyway (to save bandwith) if you don't disable that function in file
> types setting, doing so may also disable other transcoding abilities
> the server has

what a load of tosh you speak Sir - according to the wiki you are
wrong, and more propaganda against WAV

please edit the wiki if you are absolutely sure of your facts

the reality is that WAV playback is native to the Duet Receiver - no
TRANSCODING to FLAC

see the wiki

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/HowtoBestAudioQuality


--
pcourtney

WiFi Only, mainly Netgear DG834GT + WNR2000 AP's
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Squeezebox Duet Receivers x 3
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Mnyb
2011-08-26 22:37:43 UTC
Permalink
I just said that the default setting in file types is to stream WAV as
FLAC not that the player cant take raw PCM it they absolotely can thats
quite a difference.

if you have not altered the wav settings in settings>advanced>filetypes
that is what SBS is going to do.

You are ofcourse able to change this if don't want sox and flac.exe to
use cpu while playing wav files


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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aubuti
2011-08-26 20:37:35 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;653114 Wrote:
> I disagree with you (and this forum should be able to handle a
> difference of opinion I would hope)
>
> First off; I have compared FLAC file sizes with WAV sizes and you are
> way off beam sunshine, and I suggest in future that you back up your
> facts before you post mindlessly, my analysis suggests that if I use
> FLAC, then my file sizes only reduce by about 52%, given that hard
> drives are absurdly cheap, and that I use X-RAID on my ReadyNAS box, it
> really does not matter to me, you may have smaller hard drives and
> budget constraints which force you to use FLAC, that is your problem,
> and to be honest why should either of us really care, I thank you for
> your advice which may have had some merit 5 years ago, but all of my
> music collection is ripped to wav (Redbook) and if I want to convert to
> anything in the future (maybe FLAC maybe not) I will be handily placed
> to do so if I want to for whatever reason.
>
> Second; andyg (slimdevices developer) is on record as saying, and I
> quote
>
> "SBS supports ID3-tagged WAV files but the ID3 tag has to be in a RIFF
> chunk called 'ID32' or 'ID3 '"
>
> I much prefer to have it from the horses mouth rather than your
> misguided belief that SBS cannot read ID3 tags in WAV files, if you
> don't believe Andy, then just rip any CD to WAV on your computer,
> download Audioshell (freeware)and then open "Windows Explorer", right
> click on the WAV file, and hit "Properties", use "AudioShell Tag
> Editor" and enter some info, then get SBS to do a rescan and search for
> the CD, let me know if that works, just purely for the sake of it, so we
> can get away from the stupid assumption that you cannot tag WAV files
> anymore, it's so last century :-)
So your "analysis" shows a 52% reduction going from WAV to FLAC. That
means the WAV is 2.08 times larger than the FLAC. Which happens to fit
neatly within my estimate of "2-3 times larger". I don't know how I
could have been so "mindlessly off the beam". And of course, the
compression ratio is not a universal single number, is it is also a
function of the complexity of the music and the compression level
setting in FLAC.

As for tagging, I never said it couldn't be done. I said WAV doesn't
have "proper" tagging support. The fact is that there is no _standard_
for tagging WAV files. Obviously it can be done. And it can be broken
tomorrow, or going from one piece of software to another.

This forum not only tolerates disagreements, but also the
disagreeable.

*plonk*


--
aubuti

Nothing high-end, but music anywhere I want it, and it's '100% wind
powered' (http://www.cleancurrents.com/). 'MSI single-core Atom
mini-desktop'
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856167032)
(Debian Lenny 5.0.6) feeding: Living room: SB Touch > 'NAD C325 BEE'
(http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C-325BEE-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier?products/hifi-amplifiers/C325BEE-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier)
> 'Vandersteen 1' (http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/1clit.html);
Kitchen/Dining: 'SB2'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050428023747/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
> 'AudioSource Amp100'
(http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-2-Channel-Bridgeable-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6)
> 2 pair of 'Polk RC60i'
(http://www.polkaudio.com/customaudio/rci/index.php?s=rc60i); Basement:
'SB2'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050428023747/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
> 'JVC JA-S44'
(http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204813) > 'ESS
Tempest LS8'
(http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/205237-ess_tempest_ls_8_speakers/);
Bedroom: Boom; Study: SB Radio; Backyard deck: 'SB Receiver'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080124175538/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
> 'AudioSource Amp100'
(http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-2-Channel-Bridgeable-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6)
> 'Polk Atrium 45'
(http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/atrium/index.php#atrium45); Kid's
bedroom: 'SB3'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20051210015952/http://slimdevices.com/)
> 'Klipsch ProMedia 2.0'
(http://www.klipsch.com.cn/na-en/products/promedia-ultra-2-0-overview/);
Roaming controllers: iPod touch with iPeng, 3 'SB Duet'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080124175538/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
Controllers, 'Nokia N800'
(http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-n800-r6); Limbo:one
more 'SBR'
(http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080124175538/http://www.slimdevices.com/)
http://www.last.fm/user/aubuti/
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pcourtney
2011-08-26 21:45:56 UTC
Permalink
you said, and I quote "your WAVs take up 2-3 times more space than they
need to"

If by way of example a CD Album ripped to FLAC is 250mb, you are
stating that the same album ripped to WAV will be 2-3 times more space,
all I am saying is please don't exaggerate, just say double, or twice as
much, it is nowhere near 3x as much

+plonk back+


--
pcourtney

WiFi Only, mainly Netgear DG834GT + WNR2000 AP's
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Squeezebox Duet Receivers x 3
iPad2 running the Remote App from Logitech
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pcourtney
2011-08-26 22:45:51 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;653137 Wrote:
> WAV doesn't have "proper" tagging support. The fact is that there is no
> standard for tagging WAV files. Obviously it can be done. And it can be
> broken tomorrow, or going from one piece of software to another
>

sigh :-(

I have been using the same software to tag my wav files for nearly 5
years !

Before Tag&Rename I used Musicmatch, which Apple introduced in July
2002 with the first iPod for Windows, it included the Musicmatch
Jukebox to manage the user's music library and transfer music to the
iPod, and tagging of WAV files to boot !

With the introduction of iTunes for Windows on October 16, 2003 they
stopped bundling the Musicmatch software, and I started using iTunes
for a bit, but stopped when Tag&Rename ver 3.3 was released and added
ID3v2 tags for WAV

Tag&Rename v3.3 beta 1 (09/29/2006):
added wav files support (MUSICMATCH Jukebox style - ID3v2 tag added to
'id3 ' wav riff chunk)

SBS supports ID3-tagged WAV files but the ID3 tag has to be stored as a
RIFF chunk !

You mention that "there is no standard for tagging wav files" , sadly
you are mistaken, the only tagging system in wide usage for WAV is the
Broadcast Wave Format, stored as a RIFF chunk.

http://www.sonicspot.com/guide/wavefiles.html#list

ID3 tags were originally designed with MP3 in mind, so they would work
without problems with MP3 and MP3Pro files. However, the tagsets are an
independent part of the MP3 file and should be usable elsewhere if
needed.
In practice, the only other format which widely uses ID3v2 tags is
AIFF, where the tag is stored inside a RIFF chunk named "ID3".

The only tagging system in wide usage for WAV is the Broadcast Wave
Format, stored as a RIFF chunk.

http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000003.shtml

an open standard, and widely used in Europe by all the major radio and
TV companies, so if it's good enough for them, I am pretty sure it's
going to be around for a while.

Windows media ASF files (WMA, WMV) have their own tagging formats but
also support ID3 Tags embedded as attributes.

Even very early versions of Winamp such as 2.xx were able to add ID3v1
and ID3v2 tags to MP1 and MP2 files

MP4 also allows the embedding of an ID3 tag, and this is widely
supported, especially in Apple's iTunes, which uses MP4 standards in
its audio and video file formats.

Other container-based formats use their own tagging formats. An example
of this is Ogg, which uses Vorbis comments.

FLAC has it's own native tagging system which is identical to that of
Vorbis. They are called alternately "FLAC tags" and "Vorbis comments".
It is the only tagging system required and guaranteed to be supported
by FLAC implementations. Out of convenience, the reference decoder
knows how to skip ID3 tags so that they don't interfere with decoding.
But you should not expect any tags beside FLAC tags to be supported in
applications; some implementations may not even be able to decode a
FLAC file with ID3 tags. Sadly adding ID3 tags to these (Vorbis and
FLAC) would break the container structure.


--
pcourtney

WiFi Only, mainly Netgear DG834GT + WNR2000 AP's
ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc 1GB RAM running SBS 7.6.1
Squeezebox Duet Receivers x 3
iPad2 running the Remote App from Logitech
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maggior
2011-08-27 00:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Enjoy your wav files.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod
Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.5, MusicIP, and
SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 37,509 songs, 2,934 albums, 515 artists.
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toby10
2011-08-27 11:36:13 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;653114 Wrote:
> I disagree with you (and this forum should be able to handle a
> difference of opinion I would hope) .....

Which is exactly what the other posters offered, a polite difference of
opinion intended to inform and help.
A far cry from what you offered.


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pcourtney
2011-08-27 12:06:52 UTC
Permalink
yawn !

I don't want to be told that FLAC is the only music file format that I
can use with my
Duets - thank you, and nor should others be bullied into this way of
thinking, I am just debunking some myths that many of you post willy
nilly without much thought

I hope that it does not put you out too much Sir !


--
pcourtney

WiFi Only, mainly Netgear DG834GT + WNR2000 AP's
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Squeezebox Duet Receivers x 3
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garym
2011-08-27 12:13:34 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;653302 Wrote:
> yawn !
>
> I don't want to be told that FLAC is the only music file format that I
> can use with my
> Duets

No one has told you that you must use FLAC. Folks have suggested that
it is a very good format for use with SB devices. You seem to be
defensive about such advice. This is a public forum. Some good info,
some bad info, like any forum, take what is useful, ignore what you
don't want.

For me, my preferred tagging program is mp3tag (although I use dbpa for
ripping). mp3tag deals with FLAC (and mp3/aac) quite nicely but will NOT
deal with ID3 tags within a WAV file (at least not in a way that would
work with SB). I have plenty of other reasons, but that reason alone
is a reason for me to use FLAC. And I'm not telling you what to do or
not do. Just what I do and why.


--
garym
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toby10
2011-08-27 12:14:18 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;653302 Wrote:
> yawn !
>
> I don't want to be told that FLAC is the only music file format that I
> can use with my
> Duets - thank you, and nor should others be bullied into this way of
> thinking, I am just debunking some myths that many of you post willy
> nilly without much thought
>
> I hope that it does not put you out too much Sir !

Again, you completely miss the point and you misstate what was said.
How about a simple "Thanks, but I prefer WAV for reasons unrelated to
SBS", leave it at that?


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Owen Smith
2011-08-27 18:20:25 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;653153 Wrote:
> nor can I, just don't force it down the necks of people who are quite
> happy sticking with Redbook for the foreseeable future :-)

WAV is not the same as Redbook. Redbook is Linear PCM audio carried on
a CD, with support for multiple tracks and skipping etc. WAV is Linear
PCM in a .wav file, supporting only one track. They are not the same,
in fact the only part of them that matches is the 44.1/16 Linear PCM.

Mnyb;653170 Wrote:
> I just said that the default setting in file types is to stream WAV as
> FLAC not that the player cant take raw PCM it they absolotely can thats
> quite a difference.
>
> if you have not altered the wav settings in settings>advanced>filetypes
> that is what SBS is going to do.

Correct, the Squeezebox Server in its default configuration converts
WAV files to FLAC before sending them over the network to the
Squeezebox. It does this in order to reduce the network bandwidth
required, FLAC being roughly half the size of the WAV file of the same
thing.


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pcourtney
2011-08-27 20:53:16 UTC
Permalink
ah, thanks Owen, I am a bit clearer on the Redbook / WAV definition
now, cheers,
Peter


--
pcourtney

WiFi Only, mainly Netgear DG834GT + WNR2000 AP's
ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc 1GB RAM running SBS 7.6.1
Squeezebox Duet Receivers x 3
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Mnyb
2011-08-28 11:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;653391 Wrote:
>
>
> Correct, the Squeezebox Server in its default configuration converts
> WAV files to FLAC before sending them over the network to the
> Squeezebox. It does this in order to reduce the network bandwidth
> required, FLAC being roughly half the size of the WAV file of the same
> thing.

It has another useful side effect it makes the buffer in the player
apears as "bigger" when more seconds of music can be stored, both this
effects together probably makes sync more reliable.

The WAV to FLAC transcoding cpu overhead is of no concern on fast
hardware, you barely notice, if one is using low powered stuff this
could be something to have in mind.


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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pcourtney
2011-08-28 14:29:53 UTC
Permalink
luckily for me (setting up WiFi hotspots is my living) I have a pretty
rock solid and fast WiFi network at home with 7 x Access Points, and
when the Duet is in close proximity to one of those AP's I get 54 Mbps
connection speeds.

The Buffer inside the Duet is 28mb for WAV files, which roughly
translates to 10 seconds at 44.1 samples/sec for uncompressed music, I
have had Duets in my home for over 3 years now, and never had a buffer
problem (or any stuttering on playback)

The much more expensive Transporter also has the same 28mb buffer size
!

The sq (sound quality) I am happy with, I have tested FLAC versus WAV
at home, and cannot really agree with you that FLAC sounds bigger, we
are talking digital binary ( Zeros and 1's here in a buffer) , so you
must have golden ears or some placebo effect that your mind is
constantly reminding you about that FLAC is better, I am very happy
listening to my WAV's, nothing any of you have said so far is giving me
any reason to change, sorry for that :-)


As a sidenote, I use EAC to rip my CD's to a WAV folder, but at the
same time I use the wonderful Musepack compressor for playing music on
my modified iPod, running Rockbox firmware, no iTunes crap here !

http://www.musepack.net/index.php?pg=pro

When using my Rockbox/iPod I have noticed that the battery lasts longer
when playing .mpc files, quality wise it also exceeds MP3 sq by a
noticeable margin, why am I saying all this, well I travel a lot, and
rip a lot of CD's on my travels, and EAC rips to WAV, and compresses to
MPC in one pass, if I did use FLAC, I would have to use EAC to rip to
WAV and FLAC, then at another time convert the WAV to MPC, and have 3
lots of folders to care for, at the moment it suits me fine just to
have all my WAV folders on the ReadyNAS (a safe X-RAID home), and all
my MPC folders on my laptop, and backed up to my external USB Samsung
hard drive.


--
pcourtney

Infrant ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc CPU 512mb and SBS 7.6.1
SBS Remote Control via an iPad2 and Logitech app
Squeezebox Duet Receivers WiFi Connected x 3
Musical Fidelity X-CAN v2 Headphone Amps x 3
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Mnyb
2011-08-28 14:51:57 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;653611 Wrote:
> luckily for me (setting up WiFi hotspots is my living) I have a pretty
> rock solid and fast WiFi network at home with 7 x Access Points, and
> when the Duet is in close proximity to one of those AP's I get 54 Mbps
> connection speeds.
>
> The Buffer inside the Duet is 28mb for WAV files, which roughly
> translates to 10 seconds at 44.1 samples/sec for uncompressed music, I
> have had Duets in my home for over 3 years now, and never had a buffer
> problem (or any stuttering on playback)
>
> The much more expensive Transporter also has the same 28mb buffer size
> !
>
> The sq (sound quality) I am happy with, I have tested FLAC versus WAV
> at home, and cannot really agree with you that FLAC sounds bigger, we
> are talking digital binary ( Zeros and 1's here in a buffer) , so you
> must have golden ears or some placebo effect that your mind is
> constantly reminding you about that FLAC is better, I am very happy
> listening to my WAV's, nothing any of you have said so far is giving me
> any reason to change, sorry for that :-)
>
>
> As a sidenote, I use EAC to rip my CD's to a WAV folder, but at the
> same time I use the wonderful Musepack compressor for playing music on
> my modified iPod, running Rockbox firmware, no iTunes crap here !
>
> http://www.musepack.net/index.php?pg=pro
>
> When using my Rockbox/iPod I have noticed that the battery lasts longer
> when playing .mpc files, quality wise it also exceeds MP3 sq by a
> noticeable margin, why am I saying all this, well I travel a lot, and
> rip a lot of CD's on my travels, and EAC rips to WAV, and compresses to
> MPC in one pass, if I did use FLAC, I would have to use EAC to rip to
> WAV and FLAC, then at another time convert the WAV to MPC, and have 3
> lots of folders to care for, at the moment it suits me fine just to
> have all my WAV folders on the ReadyNAS (a safe X-RAID home), and all
> my MPC folders on my laptop, and backed up to my external USB Samsung
> hard drive.

You are missunderstanding me :) completely while att it. all lossles
formats sounds exactly the same to me .
I meant that the buffer last longer nothing else .
Is my English that bad ?


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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puranjan
2011-06-06 23:06:31 UTC
Permalink
nolvadextabs com/]Generic Nolvadex
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TAMOXIFEN blocks the effects of estrogen It is commonly used to treat
breast cancer It is also used to decrease the chance of breast cancer
coming back in women who have received treatment for the disease It
may also help prevent breast cancer in women who have a high risk of
developing breast cancer


--
puranjan
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toby10
2011-06-07 11:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps if you described exactly what aspects of a Duet you feel are so
(or soon to be) outdated that you feel make the Duet "obsolete"?
There are legitimate reasons and usage scenarios where avoiding a Duet
is a valid concerned. But this does not apply to most users.


--
toby10
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toby10
2011-06-05 13:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634821 Wrote:
> There will always be newer stream formats not envisaged when a device
> was built. As such chasing being able to play everything natively is
> doomed to failure. So I prefer the approach of simplifying the Receiver
> (simpler is more reliable) and transcode everything in the server.....

Like when SqueezeBox added native FLAC playback (their first few models
did not support your beloved FLAC)? ;)

Power consumption: aubuti handled that. Even if it were a couple
watts more it is splitting hairs. If these few watts are so critical
to you (and the perceived polar bears you are saving) why are you using
ANY audio device with a remote? Did you factor in the power consumption
of the SBC? Remotes require batteries which must be recharged or
replaced, either option consumes more power. Nor are batteries
"environmentally friendly", even rechargeable batteries eventually need
replaced. So use the Touch's touch screen instead and feel better about
your carbon footprint.

Also, why are you leaving such devices on 24/7? Doesn't seem real
carbon footprint friendly to me. ;)

Out of the box with no modifications Touch is a better all around audio
player (both analog and digital) vs SBR. You are far more the
audiophile than I (and I truly respect that) so this fact alone should
be very important too you vs your nitpicking the minor aspects of
"features I won't use". But as suggested you can modify/tweak to your
hearts (ears) content. Turn off the screen and any other features you
feel are impacting your audio experience.

Teasing aside... :) .... Have you tried the many 192k+ streams
available? I agree 128k streams are borderline in audio quality vs FM,
but there are many higher bitrate streams out there (192k, 256k, 320k)
that you may find much more pleasing. If you would like some input
into a few ways to find these higher bitrate (and very often commercial
free) streams utilizing your SqueezeBox, just give a shout. I *rarely*
listen to any streams below 192k and I usually find a decent selection
at these higher bitrates.


--
toby10
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Owen Smith
2011-06-05 15:34:17 UTC
Permalink
toby10;634949 Wrote:
> Have you tried the many 192k+ streams available? I agree 128k streams
> are borderline in audio quality vs FM, but there are many higher
> bitrate streams out there (192k, 256k, 320k) that you may find much
> more pleasing. If you would like some input into a few ways to find
> these higher bitrate (and very often commercial free) streams utilizing
> your SqueezeBox, just give a shout. I *rarely* listen to any streams
> below 192k and I usually find a decent selection at these higher
> bitrates.

Avro Baroque is a 256kbps MP3 stream and it sounds very good, I listen
to this sometimes for hours on end. The BBC Radio3 HD stream is superb
at 320kbps AAC, but it rarely stays up for an entire 1 hour program
(The Early Music show usually) and I'd rather listen uninterrupted on
FM. Classic FM sounds better on DAB (160kbps MP2) than it does on it's
iffy 128kbps MP3 stream, despite MP3 being a better codec. Most of my
listening is Radio 2 FM in the mornings and Classic FM on DAB early
evening (Classic FM over-modulate their FM feed leading to clipping so
the DAB feed sounds better, listen to high male tenor notes to spot the
clipping).


--
Owen Smith
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aubuti
2011-06-02 19:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634524 Wrote:
> If Logitech abandon the Duet then they are effectively giving up on the
> hifi seperates market.
Sorry, but that kind of hyperbole is just plain silly. Where are those
outputs on the Touch (24/96 capable outlets, no less) supposed to go to
except into separates?

Two more points. First, you don't need an iPad or fancier phone,
because you already have the SBC. Second, the SBC could possibly
outlive the SBR. This is only speculation on my part, because of
Logitech's famed silence on basic product line issues. Because the SBC
is a "fat device" based on SqueezeOS it has at least some chance for a
longer life than the now-dead-end ip3k platform of the SBR. And there
are no doubt quite a few out there on the secondary market, sold by
people who later bought one of the alternatives.


--
aubuti
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Owen Smith
2011-06-02 20:08:48 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;634538 Wrote:
> Because the SBC is a "fat device" based on SqueezeOS it has at least
> some chance for a longer life than the now-dead-end ip3k platform of
> the SBR.

I never said an upgraded Receiver should be based on the ip3k platform.
I don't care what the platform is so long as it is more reliable and has
a high quality 96/24 digital output.


--
Owen Smith
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Phil Leigh
2011-06-02 20:18:14 UTC
Permalink
The Touch is better than the SBR in terms of its DIGITAL
circuitry/outputs and is a better transport when used to feed an
external DAC.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Phil Leigh
2011-06-02 16:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Owen Smith;634434 Wrote:
> ...
>
> The Duet is a fantastic idea, I don't understand why Logitech aren't
> updating it. The controller should be upgraded to a touchscreen device
> with a larger display, and the receiver should be upgraded to do 24/96
> with a better quality DAC in it.

The Touch screen can be turned off.

Upgraded SBR/SBC is not going to happen.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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w3wilkes
2011-06-01 13:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Personally I'm very pleased with my Duets. That being said, it does
appear that Logitech is discontinuing the Duet.

Yes, there are smartphone apps that can control any Squeezebox device.

If you were to bypass the Duet I think the Squeezebox Touch would be
the device to get.

There is a Squeezebox server application that will install directly on
some NAS devices, but there have been reported performance issues. If
you have a PC that is on full time my opinion is that a PC is a better
platform for the Squeezebox server software.

As an aside the Squeezebox Touch does have a built in Squeezebox server
that allows you to bypass a NAS or PC. From these forums I'd be inclined
to steer clear of this approach, it seems to have limited capability (no
support for pluggins as a example) compared to the full Squeezebox
server application and also sounds like it has other various "issues".


--
w3wilkes

2 Duets - 1 for upstairs and 1 for downstairs
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maggior
2011-06-01 13:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Keep in mind that the Receiver (the player half of the Duet, which can
be found seperately) can only be configured with the SB Controller or a
not-so-user-friendly script written in Perl. Any other squeezebox
(Touch, Transporter, SB2/3, Classic, etc.) doesn't require the
controller for setup.

I use iPeng and the free Logitech app. I like the controller too, but
the biggest difference I see is that artwork looks *much* better on my
iPod Touch than on the controller screen.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod
Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.0, MusicIP, and
SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 34,767 songs, 2,776 albums, 505 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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Mnyb
2011-06-01 15:37:56 UTC
Permalink
never player supports more formats natively such as AAC or 24/96 FLAC
files.

This can ofcourse be transcoded for the player by the server wich works
just fine, so even old players play " anything" that way, but if you are
inclined to run the server on a not so powerfull platform, you can find
yourself in a corner with some aac only radio stream or similar, as the
transcoding helpers can not run on all platforms, however.

also support for spotify without a server is only possible on Touch or
Radio.

Future formats or services will only be developed for Touch and Radio
unless it is such a format that can be handled by the server, via
plugin or transcoder.
But some vendors can demand that thier stream must be encrypted all the
way to the playback device...

never player will be more future proof.

However if all you want is to play your own local music files in FLAC
or MP3 and some other formats.
the duet will ofcourse continue to do just that, it supports 24/48
rates natively, the rest is transcoded by the server.

But the Touch is better IMHO, I use my iPad to controll mine or it's ir
remote


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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